Whatever happens to us in our life is entirely self-generated. However, this life is not the only one. We have lived many, many times before. And in those previous lives we have at times been not very nice.Here is the conversation that ensued:
Imagine, for example, the history of the Nazis. They killed 6 million Jews alone, and millions more in the remaining time of their reign. What do you think will happen to them, karmically, as a group? They will come back as a group in a situation that will hand them a very, very unpleasant life. Think Africa, severe poverty and violance, AIDS, etc.
K (me): I find it fairly shocking that you are basically saying that people in Africa living in conditions of dire poverty, violance (sic) and suffering from AIDS deserve what they have because they were probably Nazis in the past. To me this seems like a simplistic cop-out explanation for something that neither you nor I understand, i.e. why bad things happen to good people.
It's a nice cosy explanation but I'd like to ask you a question or two:
1. Do you have evidence for it? (this being the only believable explanation that anyone has come up with so far does not count as evidence).
2. Would you be prepared to tell somebody who is ill, suffering or living in poverty that their situation is a consequence of actions they took when they were King Henry VIII and beheaded 2 of their wives?
3. Is it important or necessary to find an explanation of why bad things happen to good people? You might say that it's important because if there are no consequences of our actions, people would have no reason to perform good deeds and be compassionnate. In response to this I would say that true compassion and truly good deeds are not done in order to gain some karmic prize for goodness. True compassion is spontaneous and any reward that may be received as a consequence is totally irrelevant to the person with true compassion.
A (him): Why does this upset you? Rather than responding to your question, I would love to respond to your anger. Do you feel anger? If so, what is the deepest reason for that? Ask me why the Tibetans got evicted by the Chinese and I will give you the detailed reasons for it.
K: *lol* Rather than respond to your question about my "anger", I would love to respond to your clever tactic to avoid my (reasonable) question. Why did you avoid it? Why do you think I am angry?
A: Tell me how you feel....
K: Eh?
A: Already now we have deterioation of communication. I asked why you are the only person with such heavy emotional reaction. Nobody else has responded the way you do. Are you looking for an answer or an excuse for confrontation?
K: Nobody else has responded the way I do. Perhaps they aren't particularly interested in the topic.
In terms of my personal motivations, I am interested in a constructive debate / conversation / discussion / exchange of ideas and challenges about the original topic: karma.
A: Okay. So, can you summarize your question then into one sentence?
K: That's difficult: too many things to say! :-) However, the three question I asked in my first response are the important ones for me (see above).
A: You may agree when I say that karmic circumstances are both individual and collective. You may agree with me when I say that when a group of people collectively kill six million Jews, that they will collectively get a bill. That is, if you agree that an action has a consequence. Concerning the Germans, I asked myself what would happen to them? When I did ask the question, the image of the starving and suffering Jews came to me, and suddenly it shifted and I saw Nazis incarned into situations of terrible suffering in Africa. So, that is a very subjective experience, you may do with it whatever you wish.
I would be prepared to tell somebody who is suffering to explore what has caused his suffering, so he won't repeat it. I would not share my view of what that might have been.
The question of Why is this happening to me? I hear it very often. I meet a lot of people and it comes up a lot. When you are part of an active process of alleviation of suffering, this is in fact a very crucial question. Christ healed a person and then said, Go and sin no more. He meant, don't repeat what got you into trouble. This seems rather wise to me.
Here is an extra. I was not joking about the Tibetans. I have gained a lot of information about Tibetan habits, which are hard to gain. The Lamas committed many atrocious things behind monastery walls. Even the Dalai Lama said, We have driven people away from our borders for 1,200 years. We should not expect anybody to help us. We have not helped anybody. Now, that is insight.
K: OK thanks for your opinion. Can I ask you another question? ;-)
How come there is an individual karma that passes from one individual sentient being to another after each death, when the individual self is just a delusion ? Why does it go from one individual to another? It shouldn't do that since the individual is by essence an illusion.
H (new contributor): karmic vulnerability in its self is a beautiful thing for me. the moment i start trusting in it and not live in its denial...yes i do feel the pain (the negative aspect of karma) and get angry with myself and everyone else for pointing it out to me. this action in its self has been bringing out a very healing effect upon me...and yes, what my great great grandfather did or what i have done in my past subconsciously has been driving my actions (constructive and destructive) until this realization. digging into that can of worms is one messy place to be. on the otherhand....when i come upon the realization that in the law of karma....all good deeds my great great grandfather did and all in between including me...have a beautiful positive effect upon me. now this is one box of chocolates i love to be in and will nurture in the future. it is advisable to have the guidance of a trained buddhist healer, when working on karmic pain. Quote/ Albert Einstein - every action has an equal and opposite reaction. trust my share helps.
love to all and happy new year.
A: If you are acqainted with Buddhist Doctrines, here it becomes important to know about the existance of the Doctrine of Two Truths. Truly, truly important, because I see a lot of spiritual folks tripping over this point. The Doctrine of Two Truths (you can google it, or find it on Wikipedia) talks about there being Two Truths, the one being Absolute and the other being Relative. I think Nagarjuna went heavily into this.
On the Absolute nothing ever changes and nothing means anything, even if entire galaxies come and go. It is on the Absolute level that there is no individual self and nothing changes. But on the Relative level, even if you are a Buddha, it will make a difference if in the morning you take the Absolute for a walk in your body ... if you go left in front of your house, or right.... the result will be rather different.... See More
The guru phenomena of the 80 were a good example of misunderstanding this. They all thought the Guru is the Absolute, therefore can do no wrong. Well, wrong! If the Absolute navigates in the Relative context, we have continuous decisions, no , yes, good, bad, day, night ... take a subway trip in NY at midnight... good idea, bad idea... You get what I mean.
The doctrine of Two Truths corelates to Buddhas statement, Emptiness is Form and Form is Emptiness. On the Form level there is duality and decisions and choices. On the Emptiness Level there is no such thing. But down here, if "you" or whatever causes you to act ..... slap somebody, somebody will slap "You or whatever" BACK. Simple.
To make it really complicated, You also suffer the consequences of your ancestors actions. Now, you can ask me about that next.
In my personal meditations I discovered there is no I. How did you discover it?
K: Happy New Year to you too H and A.
Nice quote from Einstein. I don't think Einstein mentioned anything about karma passing on from Mr Smith to a camel or a starving African child though.
I totally agree that actions that people in our distant past (even before we were born) can have an effect on us. Great Grandfather affected the emotions and behaviour of Grandma, whose emotions and behaviour in turn affected Dad, who of course had a huge influence on us in our childhood and therefore the rest of our lives and our psyche too.
If that's what we're debating, I think we're all in agreement.
What we're really debating, though, is whether an individual's actions in their current life really do have consequences in their own future lives. And as the individual self is, according to Buddhist thought, a non-existant, I don't see how these two views are compatible.
A: If you make Buddhist Thought your Absolute God, without having any direct experience, then we argue about air. Let us stop here. Have a good day.
_______________________________________________
Readers: your thoughts on this topic would be greatly appreciated, by me if by nobody else! I'm struggling with this topic. I'm finding it difficult to accept that people living in dire poverty in Africa, or suffering the effects of global warming and rising sea levels in Bangladesh, brought it upon themselves because they were war criminals or mass murderers or whatever in a former life. I mean.... what?
I don't have an explanation as to why some people suffer more than others, but I prefer to accept my ignorance on these matters than to take on an unconvincing, irrational, absurd explanation such as this.
